In what forum do we put non nudes?

[Klondike]

hi guys,

From time to time, you have heard me talk about renaming the Exhibitionist and Voyeur forum in part to remove the term "Voyeur". Here's the latest problem, and I think it comes about in part due to confusion over that term and its use in E&V. Actually, this has been going on for a long time. But right now, NN-street candid type pics are split between the upskirts and downblouses forum and the E&V forum. Go ahead and take a peak and you will see street candid type threads in both forums (for example, "Candid Town" and "Street voyeur sho(r)ts" are threads in two different forums but they contain the same type of pic). Also, the E&V section has a camel toe thread. I don't know, but are these types of threads on the increase in this forum? I couldn't say for sure, but perhaps. Anyway, IHMO (stressing the word "humble"), all NN-street candid type pics incl camel toes, DB's, upskirts, sexy butts, sexy clothes, bikinis, thongs, whale tails, pantylines, busty tops etc ought to go in the upskirts and downblouse forum, not E&V. They form a natural group that ought to go together in the same forum as I think the audience for this type of pic is similar. Right now, E&V is getting a fair amount of these - on each page there seems to be at least one thread that is a NN thread.

So I am advocating removing all NN threads from E&V. NN is not "exhibitionism" as no one is nude. The problem is that it is voyeur content, but then so is all of the content in the upskirts and DB forum! I mean, using the term "Voyeur" in the title of the E&V section creates confusion in that someone wanting to post this type of pic may not be able to figure out which forum to put the thread in. Thats exactly what I see as happening here. Upskirts and DB's are "voyeur" content, but its the E&V section that actually contains the word "voyeur" in the title!.

So voyeur pics are split up between both forums. To me, "E&V" is about exhibitionism and public nudity, not voyeur. The term public nudity would cover so called "voyeur" beach pics which could remain where they are. But all other types of voyeur content, IMHO, is neither exhibitionism nor public nudity, and arguably belongs with upskirts and DB's. Above I talked specifically about NN's, but that would also apply to "spying on the wife in the shower" type pics which are neither public nudity nor exhibitionism.

Anyway, right now, the main problem as I see it is with NN threads, as there are no "spying on the wife in the shower" type pics in the upskirts and DB forum. So its only the NN threads that are split up between both forums. It seems then that addressing that ought to get priority. Then you can talk about the "spying on the wife" pics and whatever else I brought up here. Incidently, NN threads include threads like the sexy athlete thread, another E&V staple, but again, a topic which I find more suitable for uppies and DB's (the girls are clothed and the turn on is, I think, similar to a pantylines or camel toes type of turn on, right?

thanks (once again) for listening,

Klondike

[Klondike]

let me just add one other thought - I noticed that there is also a thread in E&V for bikini pics which tend to be posed shots. What I was referring to above was NN-street candids type pics. Posed bikini pics might be seen as more exhibitionist in nature (and therefore suitable for the forum).

Anyway, you know I am a nit picker for this type of thing, and of course I am not requesting that the mods move any current threads, only future threads! And perhaps look for ways to sharpen the distinction in this grey area between the two forums so that newbies etc know where to post stuff in the future.

Klondike

[Fango]

To put it simply: Pictures taken without the subject's knowledge are, by definition, "voyeur" pics, whether nude or non-nude, and belong in the Exhibitionists & Voyeur section. If the pictures contain upskirts, downblouses and the like, then and only then do they belong in Upskirt & Downblouse. Street candids without upskirts, downblouses, etc. would be off-topic in the Upskirt & Downblouse section because they don't contain u's/d's/etc. Conversely, non-nude street candids are on-topic in the Exhibitionists & Voyeur section because they were voyeuristically taken.

Frankly, I don't think this is an issue worth worrying about too much. There really aren't that many of these threads in the section and they are easily scrollpast-able since they usually identify the contents within fairly well in their titles. As far as I can tell, the non-nude street candids have limited appeal, and I don't see a problem with the few people who do enjoy them being able to post in the E&V section.

To me, "E&V" is about exhibitionism and public nudity, not voyeur.

Yes, but that's only because that's what you post and enjoy there. Other people post and enjoy voyeur pics in the same section. Admittedly, they're a bit of an odd couple, but they get equal billing in the title. You can't have Felix without Oscar, Siskel without Ebert, Bert without Ernie...

Fango

[Klondike]

Originally Posted by Fango

To put it simply: Pictures taken without the subject's knowledge are, by definition, "voyeur" pics, whether nude or non-nude, and belong in the Exhibitionists & Voyeur section. If the pictures contain upskirts, downblouses and the like, then and only then do they belong in Upskirt & Downblouse. Street candids without upskirts, downblouses, etc. would be off-topic in the Upskirt & Downblouse section because they don't contain u's/d's/etc. Conversely, non-nude street candids are on-topic in the Exhibitionists & Voyeur section because they were voyeuristically taken.


Fango

Thanks for the reply, Fango (and showoffzzz). A couple of quick points: "You mention upskirts and downblouses and the like" Its the "and the like" which is the grey area and goes undefined. Camel toes, pokies, see thru, cleavage, pantylines, etc as well as other peaks and slips are generally included in UP and DB even though they are not necessarily "girls showing more than they intended". Many of these are essentially NN-street candids and currently can be found in either forum due to confusion over the grey area. Since they are not technically either UPs or DBs, some elect to put them in E&V, some in UPs and DBs. I don't have any idea where the dividing line is here, but to me, they are all nonnudes and arguably ought to go together (making non nude vs nude a prime criteria for choosing the appropriate forum).

Also, "pics taken without the subjects knowledge" (excluding UPs and DBs) belong in E&V simply because that is what you all have decided, not because it makes sense when you consider that UPs and DBs are also pics taken without the subjects knowledge (as are some ENF and sexy am pics as well).

UPs and DBs also contain accidental nudity but I did notice that most of the threads there really are about UPs and DBs, which surprised me a bit. So you are right and we are not talking about a lot of threads that seem misplaced.

But "pics taken without the subjects knowledge" is also "girls caught unaware" which is in part the subtitle that goes underneath the E&V title. These are, as you state by definition "voyeur pics". But I am not sure I agree that this should be a prime criteria for inclusion of a pic in E&V. Public nudity pics often include a mix of posers and "girls caught unaware" and it is all public nudity to me and scarcely distinguishable are the pics sometimes. The defining characteristic of the pic is that it is public nudity, from event XYZ perhaps, and not girls caught or not caught unaware. With that in mind, for the purposes of organization, I could see adopting a more restrictive interpretation of what is a "voyeur" pic, and removing "girls caught unaware" as an E&V criteria. It still is curious to me that "girls caught unaware" is an E&V criteria, but the word "public" is nowhere to be found! To me, "public" is the defining characteristic of an E&V pic! OK, "public" and "naked"! The two must go together for inclusion in E&V. Otherwise, put it in UPs and DBs. The other key word I would introduce is "voluntary" because a woman nude voluntarily as opposed to involuntarily is what to me separates a UPs and DBs pic from an E&V pic. IMHO, if you are voluntarily nude in public, it doesn't matter if you are caught unaware or not, it is an E&V pic. The term "voyeur' then becomes irrelevant, and to avoid confusion with the more "true" voyeur type pics to be found in UPs and DBs, warrants consideration for removal from the section title. If you then broaden UPs and DBs a little to include all non nudes, E&V can be reserved for "public nudity" only (emphasis on both words) and the aware or unaware distinction goes away. "Public" would have to make allowances for CMNF, nude for friends, etc - not necessarily truly public but voluntary, social nudity (nudity in front of others for purposes other than sex).

Anyway, I know you don't have time or inclination to deal with my issues, guys. I understand! I know this from past experience and I assume that nothing as changed. So all I can do is occasionally throw my two cents worth in, and hope that someday maybe someone will take this up. Maybe tonight its my dollars worth, I don't know.

Also, I'm headed out of town again until Friday so I probably won't respond to anything further that you write for a while. Again, I also agree that we are not talking about a lot of threads. Finally, I respect all the mods as they do a fantastic job and its not easy dealing with micromanagers and nitpickers like myself. So thanks again for listening and have a nice week -

Klondike

[eviltwin]

He's not the only one though, I've suggested to change the structure before as well.
My problem with the way things are, is that I miss threads in the E&V forum, because frankly, that forum generates massive amounts of threads. Every day, material is posted in several pages of threads, making it impossible to see them all, and as many of them are completely uninteresting to me, they only serve to flood that part of the forum with clutter.
I understand that having too many forums and sub-forums isn't good either, but I feel there could be some middle way here, where Exhibitionism and Voyeurism could each be one forum, with a few sub-forums, like upskirt and downblouse as a sub-forum to Voyeurism, beach-photos should probably be a sub-forum as well, while public nudity events should be covered in Exhibitionism. Threads would sometimes be hard to place, but it would be easier to navigate overall, I feel.

[Klondike]

Originally Posted by showoffzzzz

That being said, it would be fun to see what you think the free photo section should look like. Currently the structure is as follows:

As a matter of fact!! I thought a lot about this while I was on vacation. So, here goes:

OK, now I am only concerned with UPs and DBs vs E&V - that is where my issue is and the solution is pretty straight forward and simple. We are not talking about a major reshuffle/reorganization, 12 new categories, etc. I also wondered if perhaps this could be put as a poll question to members. Eviltwin has already voiced some support here.

So if this were a poll question, it might be worded like this: "Do you agree or disagree that....

"Klondike is somewhat unhappy with the way that pics are distributed among the UPs and DBs forum the E&V forum, and with the titles and subtitles attached to each. The main issue is this: KLondike sees UPs and DBs as being for "voyeur" pics, and yet the word "voyeur" does not appear in the title of that forum. It appears instead in the title of the E&V forum. So Klondike, who makes a big distinction between what he calls "true voyeur" pics (girls totally unaware of either being seen or photographed i.e involuntarily naked in front of others) and so called "voyeur beach" pics and other candid public nudity candids where girls are voluntarily naked in front of others and only may object to being photographed. This latter type of pic he prefers to call "public nudity candids", not "voyeur" pics. So his "dream" come true would be to have OCC organized like the pics in his private collection, and that means putting all "true" voyeur pics together along with non nudes (closely associated) and accidental nudity (no ENF). Meanwhile, the E&V forum is reserved for exhibitionist and public nudity pics (voluntarily nude in public posed or unposed), naturism, CMNF, social nudity, etc."

So, now lets look at each forum in more detail:

first, UPs and DBs. What kinds of pics do we want there, and what should we name the forum?

1) content - IMHO three main types of pics should go here:

a)"True" voyeur pics - peaks and spy shots. this refers to the classic, 5-I's, sneaky, sometimes illegal pics that form the core of what I have always relegated to my "voyeur" collection. Just to clear up any possible misunderstanding, I love a great voyeur pic! I don't consider them inferior to other types of pics nor content that needs to be banished from the E&V forum. "True" voyeur pics fall into two categories - "peaks" and "spy shots". Peaks are upskirts, DBs, side blouses, up blouses, down backs, etc where the girl is generally clothed but "showing more than she intended". They can be public or private. These tend to intergrade with "slips" (see below re:accidental nudity). "Spy shots" are the sneaky, peephole, "Spying on the wife in the shower" type pics that include window voyeur shots, backyards neighbors, GF seen through an open door in the bedroom, sleeping gals, toilet peep shots (non explicit) etc - all qualify if the girl is truly involuntarily naked for others and in a private place. In other words, she is not consenting to anyone viewing or taking a pic of her nudity. Incidently, I would tend to put all pee pics here (non explicit) even if the girl is in public as long as there is no ENF. Occasionally, girls will pee outdoors while clearly in the presence of others not peeing (voluntary nudity) but this is rare. And now if you happen across any other girl in public and naked and with no one else around i.e her nudity is not for anyone's eyes it could go here but how often does that happen??? A dare? midnight streak? Thats one of those situations that falls in the cracks and is not really a voyeur pic IMHO. Consider yourself a lucky guy, not a voyeur. And I know not all spy shots are premeditated, peeing Tom type pics - sometimes you just get lucky there also. But so its a public/private type thing and I guess I'm saying if its public, put it in E&V unless its pee.

b) Non nudes - because peaks are generally non nudes I can also see putting other non nude candids in UPs and DBs. This is mainly because I think the audience for this type of pic is very similar. Other non nudes include pokies, see thru, camel toes, thongs, bikinis, sexy butts and cleavage, sexy clothes, pantylines, whale tails, and street candids in general. Sometimes I refer to these as "non nudes/sexy". They are almost always candids i.e taken without the girls knowledge, but because the girl is not nude and might be dressed in a sexy manner in order to attract attention, these are not "true" voyeur pics. There is some grey area here with true voyeur pics and accidental nudity though (i.e. a "see thru" or pokie pic might be involuntary nudity if the girl accidentally got her shirt wet).

c) accidental nudity - To me, we have two categories of pics here - slips (nipslips, pussyslips, etc) and oops (major accidents or malfunctions), and due to the frequent presence of ENF here, pics tend to get divided between two forums. Oops are more likely to contain ENF and thus more likely to be found in that forum. Anyway, accidental nudity pics are not "true" voyeur pics but a close cousin. They do not depend on a sneaky/resourceful guy to take the pic. Instead, the nudity just happens and the act of photographing it is not premeditated. But the girls are still involuntarily exposed and so I would definitely put these in UPs and DBs unless there is ENF! And thats a big "unless!" ENF tends to supersede everything else, meaning no matter what type of pic you have - public nudity, initiation, accidental, party pic etc if there is ENF, it probably ought to go in the ENF forum, especially if it is a really great ENF. Anyway, oops pics fall under many subcategories like wardrobe malfunctions, rough play, wind and water, kid and animal capers (coppertone girl) etc. This intergrades with defrocking pics which, if they are accidental, also belong here. Sometimes though it can be hard to tell. Non accidental defrocking and other forced nudity though is so often accompanied by ENF that the ENF forum is really the best place for all of these. So, only if its clearly an accident, not forced, and there is no ENF, put it in UPs and DBs. Most slips will likely go here, but only some oops pic will. Therefore, it is hard to say up front, in the title, that this is the forum for accidental nudity. Slips yes, but all accidental nudity pics - no because of the ENF factor.

2) OK, so what name can we give to this forum?. For me, a first requirement would be to include the word "voyeur". After that, its hard to say. Some suggestions for names, but I could go with any one of these:

Voyeur - peaks and slips, NN/sexy shots
Voyeur and NN/sexy candids
Voyeur: upskirts, downblouses, slips, etc and NN/sexy
Voyeur peaks and slips, NN candids

or your choice...

in the next post I will talk about the E&V forum

Klondike

[Klondike]

next up we have the Exhibitionist and Voyeur forum



As I stated in my previous post, I am mainly advocating removing the word "voyeur" from the title here and substituting it with something containing the word "public". The reasons will become clearer below:



1) Content - what types of pics should go in the E&V forum? Well, most threads in E&V contain one or more of the following elements: "exhibitionism", "public nudity", "social nudity (including naturism)", and "beaches". The element I want to exclude or am unconcerned with it the "voyeur" element which is presently there in the form of spy type pics, NN candids and by some's definition "voyeur beach" pics which I prefer to call "candid beach" pics to avoid confusion with other "voyeur" type pics. The key word in dealing with the voyeur element here is "voluntary". If you are voluntarily practicing social or public nudity, pics of you caught unaware are not "voyeur" pics but candid pics, IMHO. They are thus acceptable for inclusion in this forum. Otherwise, you are involuntarily naked in front of others, have no intention of being seen or photographed, and thus it is a pic for the UPs and DB forum.

a) exhibitionism - In its purest form this is public nudity or exposure of the private parts for an audience for the purpose of gratifying oneself sexually or for the sexual gratification of that audience. Pics of crowd streakers and NAP strippers are among the most exhibitionist of public nudity pics. Otherwise, exhibitionism often intergrades seamlessly with other public nudity pics - you really can't tell half the time what you've got. Now almost all exhibitionism is also public nudity, but there is a grey area. For example, if you have a pic of a lap dance given to a guy at a private batchelor party, its exhibitionism but arguably not really public. Thats OK. Also, all flashing and mooning type pics are exhibitionist in nature and even if no one else is visible in the pics or they look like they were taken in private, I'd put them here.

b) public nudity - this term is pretty self explanatory with the only problem being defining exactly what you mean by nudity and what you mean by public! OK, so you can have semi nudity and semi public, in other words. I am no lawyer! Use your best judgement. But non nudes go in another forum, and the semi public or private issue gets automatically taken care of by the next element, "social nudity". Also, public does not mean "outdoors" of course - and vice versa. But again, you're off the hook anyway as long as you have social nudity. Public nudity includes festivals, protests, performances, stage shows, campus events, bikes and runs, street carnivals and parades, charity events, club nudity, fetish stuff, body paint, strip clubs, adult expos, events with hired naked models, flashing events, etc - thats just a partial list.

c) social nudity - this covers everything "public nudity" doesn't cover when it comes to being voluntarily naked in front of others. therefore, you needn't worry if your pics aren't really truly "public" pics. Social nudity covers everything from naturism practiced at a private naturist club to CMNF pics, private party pics that get a little crazy etc. Even potentially to "naturist theme" pics i.e pics of people "living in the nude" (cooking, cleaning, etc naked).
This element also covers a large category of pic which I used to call "community am" or webshots type pics - seeing as how most seemed to come from webshots. Often these pics just show a bunch of friends hanging around and one happens to be exposed. There may be ENF or defrocking or other stuff etc in which case it could arguably go in another forum. Otherwise, its just social nudity. Take strip poker for example - without ENF, it should (and currently does even with ENF) go here.

d) beaches - I throw beaches in here because it is such a popular category of pic, but really, its covered under the broader umbrella of "public nudity" and I only mention it because a lot of people see nude beach pics as being voyeur pics. Well, one can argue that I suppose, but beach pics range from casual skinny dip type pics which are arguably more private than public, to pics on beaches that are so public you can see boobs while driving by in your car. Anyway, all of this is "social nudity" i.e voluntary nudity in front of others, and hence all go in this forum whether or not they are of the sneaky "girls caught unaware" variety or posed vacation type snaps.

e) naturism - again, covered by "social nudity", but I'll just point out the different types of naturism because some are pretty solitary and private. But all go here. Among naturist type pics are organized club naturist pics and what I call "personal naturism" type pics i.e. pics of you and your girlfriend naked on a camping trip in the wilderness. In its extreme, you could snap a pic of said girlfriend in her tent and I'd be Ok with the pic going in this forum. Its not a social nudity pic if no one else is visible, but hey - the intent is there and you are essentially practicing personal naturism.

f) public nudity with ENF - a lot of PN can be accompanied with ENF and I'd consider putting it in the ENF forum. Initiation pics are a great example. A lot of initiation stuff is semi private and coerced perhaps and great ENF material even though it passes all the tests for this forum also. Like I said in the previous post, ENF tends to supersede everything else though, and ENF lovers would hate to miss a great ENF pic that got put in E&V only.

g) posed girls outdoors - this is a grey area for me. I guess it gets back to what I said about personal naturism. What about posed bikini pics? There is a thread for that in E&V now. OK, let 'em go here, but be discrete. I mean, this is really not the forum for simple outdoor pics of naked girls. Its neither public nudity nor naturism (unless they are doing something to lead me to believe they have no problem practicing either)

h) multiple babe and group shots - popularized by Osreb Arguably social nudity. Any group naked pics (posed or unaware), whether MF, FF, FFFF, etc have a long history of going in E&V and I have no desire to change that...

i) NIP - as long as they are not pro, put 'em here as always. Its public. Its often exhibitionist. No problem. I mean, even if you know the girl would scream and run if a stranger happened by (in which case it is involuntary nudity in front of others except you the cameraman), they go here. Good for her - she is making a go at it

J) sexy athletes type threads - OK, now this is NN and candid and I would probably prefer this type of pic to go in UPs and DPs.

k) other candid ams. The way the E&V subtitle reads now, "girls caught unaware" would open the door for all candid pics taken of amateur girls, whether in public or private. But most amateur candids are of girls fully aware that their pic is being taken. They only look unaware....(Hey honey - just pretend I'm not here, OK??)
. So, put 'em in sexy ams unless we have an outdoor, naturist type theme perhaps...(i.e. sports girls - naked surfing, diving, roller blading, bungee, bike riding, etc).



2) OK, now as for a title for the E&V forum:

try these:

Exhibitionism and public nudity
Public nudity, exhibitionism and naturism

etc, etc I don't care that much as long as the term "voyeur" is removed.


what have i forgotten? Anyway, as you can see, I'm not putting all of this up here because I see a need for a radical reorganization of material. Things are pretty much the way they've always been. So I'm just trying to clear up the grey areas and make sure I get across what I really mean by "voyeur" as that continues to be my main issue with the way things are at present. Hope I've made things clear enough.....

Klondike

[Klondike]

my poll question, BTW, contains an omission. I just noticed it and it reads awkwardly. It should say:

"Klondike is somewhat unhappy with the way pics are distributed among the UPs and DB forum and the E&V forum...."

KLondike

[Klondike]

since my potential poll question was not worded too well, let me restate it below:

Potential poll question: Do you agree or disagree with the following issue raised by Klondike concerning forum organization:


"Klondike is somewhat unhappy with the way that pics are currently distributed among the UPs and DBs forum and the E&V forum, and with the titles and subtitles attached to each. The main issue is this: KLondike sees UPs and DBs as being the forum for "voyeur" pics, and yet the word "voyeur" does not appear in the title there. It appears instead in the title for the E&V forum. So Klondike, who makes a big distinction between what he calls "true" voyeur pics and so called "voyeur beach" pics and other public nudity candids where girls are voluntarily naked in front of others but perhaps "caught unaware", humbly requests that the OCC staff review these forum titles and consider moving the term "voyeur" from the E&V title to the UPs and DB title. The goal is to unite all "true" voyeur pics (girls involuntarily naked in front of others), NN candids and accidental nudity (no ENF) in a forum clearly stated as being for "voyeur" pics, not just upskirts and down blouses. And in the process, the E&V forum can be reserved for exhibitionism and public nudity (incl social nudity, naturism, CMNF, etc) without any reference to the term "voyeur".

thank you -

sincerely and respectfully yours,

Klondike

I will now henceforth shut up, sit back, get a good nights sleep, and let you all decide (100% your decision) as to where and when and if you want to take this up. Posting this as an actual poll question is not for me to decide. Its up to you. I suspect most here will just yawn, but at least I have made my case. I'm done. Fini. It is now in god's hands, and the invisible hand of the "wizards of OCC", who I know not well, but bow down to in my eternal humbleness...

[Klondike]

OK, well I guess I can't shut up. But this is a slightly different topic. Eviltwin and Showoffzzz brought up the notion of forums and sub forums. Or at least Eviltwin brought it up. But since his concern is the sheer numbers of pics in E&V, for example, the idea of having forums and sub forums might be one way to address that and make it easier for folks to find stuff.

With that in mind, all you have to do is take my previous posts and where I have listed a,b,c,d etc and consider making each of those topics (or maybe at least some of them) sub forums within UPs and DBs or E&V.

For example:


Forum: UPs and DB's


potential sub forums:

a)Upskirts and downblouses (collectively known as peaks but most are UPs and DBs)

b)Spy shots

c)Non nudes (or NN/sexy or street candids)

d)accidental nudity (but like I said if there is ENF its a no go)




Forum: E&V


potential subforums:

a)classic naturism (club and retro pics primarily)

b)nude beaches and personal naturism (including beach candids, vacation snaps, sauna, wilderness,
daytime skinny dip and other "personal naturism" pics)

c)NIP (nude in public) - public nudity "non events" including crowd streakers.

d)Social naked amateurs (For lack of a better term - i.e. friends naked together but generally more
teen fun type stuff rather than personal naturism - CMNF, strip poker,
coed naked sports, hot tub, creative attire, dares, nighttime skinny dip, private parties, flash, moon, group
pics, drunk girls, etc). These are "non event" pics generally except perhaps the coed naked sport (rugby, etc)

e) innocent public nudity - events without a strong exhibitionist component (campus stuff, bikes,
runs, festivals, rallys, street carnivals and parades, protests, performance (non sexual), body art stuff
(more about art or covering oneself than sexual)

f) exhibitionist public nudity - NAP, strippers, wet-T, other sexy stage shows, fetish and bondage,
hired models, hosts or performers, adult expos, Uzyna Uzona and other sexual troubadours and
shows.



Anyway, I'm not campaigning for this but if others see this as something worthy of consideration, here's what comes to mind -

KLondike